#438 – High School Leadership, with Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs

If you are listening to the podcast with your instructional team or would like to explore this topic more deeply, here are guiding questions to prompt your reflection:

• What does it mean to you when Scott says, “Teaching…is the plate”?
• How can school leaders model instructional practices in meaningful ways?
• In what ways can student voice inform and improve our teaching?
• How does, or can, AVID support collective determination in your school?
• What are simple ways that administrators can stay connected to classroom learning?
• How can we provide more opportunities for teacher-led professional learning?

• Patapsco High School and Center for the Arts (Baltimore County Public Schools)
• National Principals Month (AFSA, NAESP, and NASSP)
• AVID (official website)
• AVID National Conference Leadership Forum (AVID)
• AVID Community of Practice (CoP) Offerings for Site Administrators (AVID)

#438 High School Leadership, with Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs

AVID Open Access
38 min

Transcript

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The following transcript was automatically generated from the podcast audio by Otter.ai. Because of the automated nature of the process, this transcript may include unintended transcription and mechanical errors.

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Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 0:00

Work hard and be nice. Like, it’s really that incredibly simple. If everyone is willing to work hard in whatever they’re asked to do, whatever they’re asked to try, and you’re just nice to people as they try it, then that’s how you move forward. I mean, it’s four words that make a huge difference.

Rena Clark 0:19

Since it’s National Principals Month, we’re featuring principals on our show this month. Today is our fourth episode in that series, and today’s episode is High School Leadership with Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs.

Rena Clark 0:36

Unpacking Education is brought to you by AVID. AVID believes in seeing the potential of every student. To learn more about AVID, visit their website at avid.org.

Rena Clark 0:49

Welcome to Unpacking Education, the podcast where we explore current issues and best practices in education.

Rena Clark 0:58

I’m Rena Clark.

Paul Beckermann 0:59

I’m Paul Beckermann.

Winston Benjamin 1:01

And I’m Winston Benjamin. We are educators.

Paul Beckermann 1:05

And we’re here to bring you actionable strategies.

Transition Music with Rena’s Children 1:09

Education is our passport to the future.

Rena Clark 1:14

Our quote for today is a short phrase that appears on the banner at the top of the Patapsco High School and Center for the Arts website. It reads, “Work hard, be nice.”

Rena Clark 1:24

I like it. It’s like what I tell my kids all the time. I mean, this is a great one. All right, so let’s get into it. So I’d love to hear what we’re thinking. You want to start us off? Either Winston or Paul? Paul, do you want to go first?

Paul Beckermann 1:41

I can. You know, this might be the shortest quote we’ve ever had, but I love it, because those four words say a ton. You know, if all of our students just did those two things, we’d have a high-functioning classroom and a high-functioning school. And really, neither of those things take a lot of natural talent. It’s just about effort and intentionality. Everyone should be able to do those two things, and if everybody did, we’d have a pretty good world to live in, wouldn’t we?

Rena Clark 2:09

I love it.

Winston Benjamin 2:12

I agree. And the part that I’m really sticking to is that “be nice,” because sometimes we forget that adults and children have things in life they have no control over that sometimes are really, really hard, that makes doing the work semi-impossible. And sometimes it’s just easy to just be nice so that that person can relax and get out of that stress brain, so that they can work hard. So I just like the idea of just like, you know, acknowledging where people are, and then that will get them to work. Like the Maya Angelou quote: they will forget what you say, but they’ll remember how you were to them. So I like this idea of just like the “be nice” part, because it’s so human-centered, and just the focus on the person before we do the work.

Rena Clark 3:00

I love that. And it’s hard to learn from people you don’t like. Even if we just say, “I’m not here to be your friend,” well, it’s real hard to learn from someone or work with someone that you don’t like. So, so important to be kind. And I’m excited here. We’ve been celebrating principals all month, and we’ve had some great conversations, so I’m excited to dig into the conversation we’re going to have today. So we’re here to welcome Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs to the podcast. And Scott is the principal at Patapsco High School and Center for the Arts. So welcome, Scott. How are you?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 3:36

I’m good. How are you?

Rena Clark 3:37

I’m doing okay. It’s an exciting Monday, but I’m excited to now spend the afternoon talking with you. And we always like to ground our listeners in and get to know a little bit more about our guests. So if you could just give us a little bit more information about yourself, maybe your educational journey, we would really appreciate it.

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 4:00

So I am the principal of Patapsco High School and Center for the Arts. I have been there as the principal for seven years now, but I actually started my teaching career there 21 or I guess 22 years ago now. So I taught there for about seven years before someone told me that I should become a department chair. So then I went somewhere else and did that for four years, and then they told me, “Hey, now you need to try being an assistant principal.” So they sent me to a middle school, which was a very big change for me to go from high school math teacher to a middle school assistant principal. But I did that for four years and then went back to Patapsco as the principal. And the nice thing is I was the assistant principal of the middle school that feeds into the high school, so I went with my kids. So I had them 6, 7, 8, and then 9, 10, 11, and 12. So we’re just now at the point I’ve been there long enough that this is the first time I haven’t had a single kid in the building that I worked with in middle school.

Winston Benjamin 5:07

That makes me sad for you. Is it a very different year?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 5:11

Yeah, I could imagine. I could imagine. So the question that I have for you is, like, you’re a high school principal, right? That comes with its whole slew of responsibilities, time, just everything. But you did something that I think is really cool. You decided to do one period as an AVID teacher. Why was it important for you to stay in the classroom, and how does that shape your leadership as a whole?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 5:46

So I think, you know, when I got to the school, I realized that, like, it was a great school. Like, kids were doing what they need to do. You walked in the classrooms, it was quiet. Kids were doing work, but it wasn’t necessarily the most engaging work. So when I started having those conversations with teachers about, like, “Hey, like, we need to really look at: are our kids compliant, or are they engaged in what they’re doing?” it kind of gave me the, “Well, you haven’t been in the classroom in how many years now?” So I was like, “Well, crap, I guess I’d better put my money where my mouth is.” So then it becomes, “Well, I’m going to take on this class.” And because I’m the principal, I could pick what it is I wanted to teach. So I always wanted to be the AVID teacher, because they always seemed like they were having more fun than I got to have teaching algebra. So that’s why I decided to do it. And then, of course, you know, my first year as principal was the year the world shut down for COVID, so my teachers were then all having to take on online, hybrid, virtual classes, and it was something I had never done before. So I’m like, “I can’t lead people through doing something that I have never in my life done.” So it became even more of a reason why I needed to kind of jump in and take over the class and really make it like something where I could invite people in. And I was telling them, like, “Come see me fail at doing this. Like, I promise you I’m going to screw it up probably more than you ever could. So come watch me do it, and then go do it better, and then let me come watch you so that I can learn.” I think that’s been my favorite part of being an administrator, is getting to watch other people teach and seeing all the things that I just never knew you could do in a classroom that I got to now try out as the AVID teacher.

Paul Beckermann 7:23

That is so cool. I don’t think I’ve ever known a principal who also spent one period of the day teaching class. That is just such a unique thing that you’re doing there. I’d love it. I’m curious, what kinds of things are you learning from that experience, especially from the kids, that you think you would never have gotten if you weren’t in that position?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 7:47

I mean, the biggest thing is like kids talk to their teachers in very different ways than they talk to their principal, and they especially talk to their AVID teachers in different ways than they talk to anyone else. So like the kids think of—so I co-taught the class with our school library media specialist, because between the two of us, we were constantly getting pulled for different things, and this made sure that our kids always had the same person consistently every day. In four years, they never once had a substitute. So, you know, us working together was able to make that happen. But like, they kind of considered us mom and dad. So, you know, they would tell us things that nobody else knew, and I got to see instruction in the building from a lens that nobody else is going to get as a principal. Like, I didn’t see what was happening when I did an observation and there was a plan and they knew I was coming, or even just an informal where everything changes the minute you walk in the room. It’s like I had a network of spies who were in all the classrooms. And over the course of four years, my kids were in every teacher’s room in the building. So I got to see when they walked in, and I was like, “Hey, take out your notes,” they’re like, “We don’t have notes in that class.” Like, “Well, what do you mean? Pull up your Schoology, let me see what you’re doing.” And they would do it, and there literally would be nothing. So then I could go into a teacher’s classroom, like, “Hey, what are we doing about notes?” And then they would give me some story. I’d be like, “Well, let me tell you the reality of what it is your kids are actually getting.” So I was able to have different conversations with them, because I was getting a student’s perspective and a student’s view of what was happening in the classrooms, and not an administrator’s view of what was happening in the classroom. And I think even now, it changes how I go in and do observations. Like, the first thing I do isn’t like, “Let me see your lesson plan.” I do notebook checks in every observation that I do to see what’s really happening in that classroom on a day-to-day basis, and not just when I’m in there.

Winston Benjamin 9:37

I got a quick follow-up question. What was the pushback like when you would say, “I didn’t see it in my students”?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 9:44

Not much. I mean, it helps that, because I taught there and I was gone for eight years, but like 60% of the staff was the exact same when I got back. So I had relationships with them already that I could kind of call them out—or I’d say, like, call them in. And I say, like, “You may think you’re doing this. Like, you may think in your mind that what you have set up is giving them this, but I’m telling you what they’re seeing from their end of it, and they’re not seeing the same thing that you are. So if you think—if your goal is that this is getting them those notes, or this is getting them that information—you need to rethink how we’re delivering it, because it’s not happening. And it might just be you need to be more intentional with telling the kids, ‘Take out your notebooks. What I’m about to give you needs to be your notes.’ Now it could be something as simple as that. It doesn’t need to be like you have to have a fancy note sheet or an interactive notebook or anything. It literally could just be they’re teenagers, and if you don’t tell them to write it down, they’re not going to write it down. So it’s just changing the messaging behind some things.

Rena Clark 10:49

And I appreciate that positive intent, because really coming in with that lens of “you might be thinking this,” because I know I’ve been in that situation before myself, and it’s like you said, the outcome is often different than what we know. And you had a real inside view. And how—I mean, like Paul said, I haven’t heard of a principal being in the classroom, and then to be in an AVID class where your students are in all these other classes, I think it was a good choice of class to take over, it sounds like. And I’d love to know more about your school, your building, because just getting to know a little bit more about it, it seems like there’s a lot of creativity and this expectation of excellence, being kind and working hard, and that seems to be a hallmark of your own leadership style. So can you just share an example of how you’ve really infused both the creativity and excellence into your building and school culture?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 11:43

So, I mean, we’re fortunate. So we have a magnet program for the arts. So about 30% of our kids are there specifically for either instrumental, vocal, visual, theater, dance, literary arts—one of those programs. But the other, like, 70% of our kids are just your neighborhood, like, “This is where you live, this is where you go to school.” So it’s really been a matter of, like, making it so we’re not doing two buildings in one, because it’s very easy for them to have two very separate experiences. So we’ve really kind of worked hard to be, “How do we showcase what our students are doing so that everyone can kind of be a part of that and like thrive from that?” Because when I got there, like, there was beautiful artwork our kids were producing, but it was only hung in the magnet wing, so like no one outside of that wing got to really see what it is our kids were producing. So now there’s artwork throughout the building and in all the classrooms and in the cafeteria, so that our kids can see what they’re producing, and we made sure that it’s not just art made by the magnet students, but it’s also the art made by our neighborhood kids. My art teachers are absolutely phenomenal and have started doing this entire project with the foundations of art kids on the art that lives in the community. So things that we don’t typically think of as art, because it’s not Picasso, it’s not Monet, but it’s just, “What is the street art that our kids see? What is the graffiti that’s on the walls that really is beautiful and artistic, that these kids can make a connection with?” And, you know, so we’ve started doing that. We have, like, band and stuff perform just in the hallways, like after school at dismissal, so that everyone can kind of get to be a part of things and kind of spark some interest in some of that creativity, you know, doing projects so that the kids are doing these things in other classrooms, so that in a math class, they might be creating a piece of artwork, they might be doing a dance thing, something to kind of bridge those two worlds. So doing some of that. And then just, you know, we tell the kids, like, you will go nowhere in life without an education. So that idea of excellence is something that we strive for. You know, I grew up in this community. I have lived in the same community. I still—I’m right now two miles from my school. So, like, I still—my son will one day go to that school. So it’s really important for me to know that we’re doing the work to make sure that we’re building that excellence. I always say, like, the community as a whole only has like a 70% high school graduation rate. Only 70% of the adults have a high school diploma. So it’s really important for me that we change that, because I know that there’s not a lot of job opportunities in our community other than, like, fast food and like little convenience store things. There’s only so many of them for the number of people here, so if I don’t give them an education, I don’t give them anything that—I never give them an opportunity to go beyond where they live right now, to, like, branch out and change, really, the entire community, not just the school.

Winston Benjamin 14:44

I appreciate you talking about the urgency of the why you do your work, but I’m going to ask you a question where I’m going to try to do a twofold thing. So the first is, like, again, as a leader, we talked about it earlier, like you have so many responsibilities—evaluation, just all those things—and sometimes it’s a hard struggle to balance between the task of managing, but you also have this task of being an instructional leader, right? How do you keep from teaching being one more thing on your plate instead of it being a priority? And how do you think your conversation of doing that impacts your teachers in their idea of “this is not one more thing added to their teaching responsibilities”? Does that make sense?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 15:38

Yeah. I mean, I kind of always say that teaching is not one more thing on my plate. It is the plate. Like, everything else we do is just based on, “How do we make the teaching part better?” You know, all the paperwork, all that other nonsense—like that is all just stuff that ultimately is designed to, “How do I make teaching better?” So if we go into every conversation, everything with “How does this make your instruction and make your teaching better?” you know, and that’s just always kind of been where we’ve centered things so that those other things kind of become secondary to the teaching, instead of the teaching being secondary to the other things. Now it’s got to be like, if this is what you hired me for, you hired me to be an instructional leader. You hired me to be an instructor. I’m hiring you to be a teacher. I don’t really care if you can fill out a form. Like, I assume you’re—like, you made it through college. You can fill out the form. I care about what you do in the classroom, and the form just becomes a secondary portion of that, you know, it’s the checking the box at the end to make sure you’re doing it, but it’s not what you’re actually there to do. I have never hired anyone to fill out a form. I’ve hired people to instruct, and then the form just kind of comes along with it.

Paul Beckermann 16:49

Let’s talk a little bit more about AVID, because I’m still intrigued. You know, with your connection back into the AVID classroom and the fact that you chose to go into an AVID class, it’s obviously something that you value, and AVID is really about preparing students for their life after they leave us. You know, college, career, life, whatever that happens to be. Do you have a success story, you know, where AVID has made a positive impact on a student or a group of students? Could you share something like that?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 17:20

I think every story kind of boils down to the same story. The kids that we get in our AVID program, most of them—college, I’m going to say, college wasn’t an option. It wasn’t even a thought. You know, when you come from a community that education is not the number one priority, putting food on the table is the number one priority. You know, our kids who drop out of school do so because they get jobs, because they need to pay rent, they need to, like, buy food, they need to do those things. So for many of them, the idea of something beyond high school is not even heard of. So when we get them into AVID and start showing them, like, “Hey, this is how you get—this is what the possibilities even are,” like, they don’t even realize what the possibilities are. Like, half of our kids—we send a lot of kids to community college anymore. We’re sending a lot of kids to the trades programs at the community college, because that’s just what they want. They want to be in those blue-collar professions. They want to do those trades and go for it. Like, I always say, I’m the only college-educated person in my family. Everybody else was in the trades. So, like, I am 100% think that’s probably, in a lot of ways, a smarter route to go. Like, but they didn’t even know it existed. Like, it’s literally a mile and a half from our building, and they didn’t know that it existed. So AVID really is that thing that we have that is opening doors for kids to see what lies beyond the community and the neighborhood that they’ve never left and that they live every day in. If your families have never had the opportunity and they’ve never made the connection, then they can’t help you make that connection, and AVID is where we help them make that connection. So, like, I could give you a million stories of kids that came into our building and were on, like, all the danger watch lists from the middle school of “this kid’s probably not going to persist to graduation.” We threw them in AVID and they made it to graduation and made it beyond. But at the end of the day, it’s all the same story. It’s AVID is a group of kids who don’t necessarily have that outside push and that outside coach to help them get to what their true potential is, and it gives them those skills. And it’s not like—the number of kids we’ve had whose parents have gone to college because their kid is learning all the processes and going home and helping Mom and Dad fill out the applications and getting them the scholarship information and getting them into those same—we’ve definitely had kids where both Dad and son both go into the same trades program at the community college, because we helped the son through it, and in the process, he helped Dad through it, and now they’re both going there. So I think, like, that’s really, to me, what AVID is all about. It’s just showing kids a world that they never would have seen otherwise.

Winston Benjamin 20:03

I appreciate that, and that reminds me of—I worked in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I was working for the Cambridge Housing Authority. And the wildest thing for me when I first started working there was the largest housing project in Cambridge was behind Harvard, and the kids had no idea how to access that space. So to your point, it’s wild that the imagination doesn’t really go beyond the reality of survival. So I appreciate you pointing out that conversation beyond the survival aspect.

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 20:41

And I think, you know, that’s the one—like, I think if I could ever change one thing about AVID, it’s just that idea that it’s the “Individual Determination.” Like, my kids don’t come with the individual determination. It’s the collective determination that then gets them to the individual success. And that’s, I think, what AVID really does is you have kids who may not have individual determination, they may not have, like, that inner drive to do it when they’re coming in, because they don’t think they’re capable of doing it. And it’s that group mentality that—that collective thing—that we’re all in this together, and we’re all going to strive and succeed. Because it’s not just about writing, “What are your goals?” It’s “What’s your goal for your neighbor?” I’m a real big proponent of—because this is my community—your goal can’t just be for you. It needs to be, “What are you doing to make your community better?” And AVID is that special little community within our school that—”What are you doing, not only for yourself, but for everyone in that community with you to make sure you all make it? Nobody gets left behind. Everybody is getting out, everybody is getting an opportunity.” So how are you doing this collectively?

Rena Clark 21:47

I appreciate that. And it’s really, you know, not just about opportunity knowledge for your students, and then it’s growing to opportunity knowledge to your community. I love hearing about, you know, your own students helping their families and then giving them the opportunity knowledge, and how that just really kind of rolls on. And I’m thinking, I’m going to kind of bring it back, though, to your teachers, the educators. You talked about how we’re striving to improve instruction, and even your own pursuit of excellence as you’re taking on this class, and you’re constantly trying to improve instruction, and then see others and then support the improvement of instruction, so you’re modeling it for them. And I’m just wondering, with your staff, what are some opportunities, or how do you as a leader provide opportunities for your staff to then also grow in their own leadership, but also their own instructional practices?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 22:42

So we kind of run our own—I call it like Patapsco Academy. So the teachers—we run it like a conference style, like you would do. So teachers can put in to, like, submit a proposal to do a professional development with staff. So the last Monday of every month is, like, choice PLCs, so they have, like, a menu of different options from different staff members of what they can showcase from their own teaching style to get into another classroom so that they can, like, then learn it. Because, again, like, I think that was the biggest aha for me as an administrator, was just seeing what was happening next door and being able to steal everyone else’s good ideas. So we’ve done a lot of that, you know, “How do we get them that opportunity?” You know, plus then just the normal, like, when we see what we’re struggling with, we do everything around it. So our normal professional development is done in, like, three-month cycles. So instead of, like, you do it one Monday and then you forget about it, because you then get something else the next month and then something else the next month, we do it in, like, semester cycles. So our teachers, every time they’re going into a PLC, are learning on the same topic, so that there’s an opportunity to go back and infuse it into what they’re doing, come back and seek feedback, so that it becomes habit, because you have to do something, like, 20 times before it actually becomes just part of who you are. So we’re giving them the opportunity. It’s not the, like, “get it and forget it” type mentality. So, like, we gave them those two options, so they’re doing that one long-term thing that they’re really kind of learning and mastering. But then there’s also opportunities to just pick up other things as they’re going along that they can kind of do, and because it’s what they’re interested in, and not necessarily what we as a school have said we need to be interested in, they’re getting a little bit more out of those one-and-done sessions in that—and creating leadership opportunities in the process as well. And we all know, and I think all of us have had the opportunity to step out of the classroom, and I always say I learned more in the first year out of my classroom than the entire 10 years I was in before. Because, like you said, I got to see so many different things, and it’s just unfortunate. So providing opportunities for teachers to see other teachers—very, very important.

Winston Benjamin 24:59

Both of you are starting to talk about the demanding master, which is education. There’s a thing that calls for innovation. You’ve got to be trying something new. You’ve got to be trying something new. But then it also demands consistency, right? So for you, Scott, how do you know, like, as a leader, when it’s time to try something new and creative and when it’s time to double down on what you’re already doing? You know what I mean? Like, how do you figure out when that point of shift is?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 25:42

I think at some point when you become complacent in what you’re doing, it’s when it’s that time for a shift. Because sometimes the shift is not about, like, “Is the data still moving?” Because the data could be, but if you’re getting, like, stale and complacent in what you’re doing, and it’s not that joy in it for you anymore, eventually the data is going to start to fall. We’ve been, like, fortunate that, like, we’ve kind of said, like, AVID is what we’re going to hang our hat on. Like, that is, like, what we do. And every new program that comes into the building from the county, we run it through the AVID filter, because at the end of the day, there are a lot of, like, things out there, but they’re all kind of the same and just named different things. So we do that work for the teachers. And all my teachers have, like, a chart that says, “Here’s what it’s called in AVID, here’s what it’s called in Reading Apprenticeship, here’s what it’s called in SIOP, here’s what it’s called in the science of learning.” Like, “Here’s what all of those things are called, but here’s really what you’re doing at the end of the day.” And there’s so much of it, like, the menu of things that they can do is so gigantic that I don’t ever worry about the, “Well, we’re getting tired of AVID.” You’re not. You’re getting tired of this one strategy that you have been doing every single solitary day, which, yeah, it’s working for your kids, but if you have to do the same thing every single Saturday, eventually you get tired of it. So let’s try a new one. Let’s throw something new in there, you know, so that it’s kind of—I would say it’s like you can eat a peanut butter sandwich until you get tired of peanut butter, and then you’ve got to, like, do something different. It’s that same thing, you know? It’s less about “When does data tell me I need to change?” and “When do I tell me I need to change?” Because the best strategy is not going to move data if you’re not into it. The worst strategy will move data if you are into it.

Paul Beckermann 27:28

I can get tired of peanut butter sandwiches, but never pizza. So there’s some strategies you just gotta always do, right? Your favorites, you know.

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 27:41

Different flavors, maybe. Different styles.

Paul Beckermann 27:44

Come on. So Scott, you’ve got a really unique situation being in the AVID classroom. I think that’s just fantastic. Like I said, I don’t know any other principal in that situation. So if you were talking to a principal in another school and you were giving them advice on ways that they could stay connected with their students, especially in a really big school, and maybe they are not in a classroom, but probably they’re not, so what kind of advice do you have?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 28:08

So I would say, like, if you can’t commit the time to being, you know, a teacher, because I understand it. I’m in a unique situation where I can do that, and my team is incredible and allows me that time to kind of walk away and shut off and do, you know, 90 minutes every other day. But I know not everybody has that, but I would say there’s no reason why you can’t at least be trained to be a tutor, like, go in and do tutorials with kids, be the trained tutor in those tutorials, because you’re going to get that same information, just in a smaller dose. Like, you’re going to see who has notes, you’re going to see, “Can they talk about things? Can they ask questions? Can they answer questions?” Like, all of those, like, basics of “Is the instruction in the classroom really teaching kids to be successful?” You will get by watching a tutorial, and if you can be in there as the tutor, then you’re really going to have a really good understanding of what is happening in your building. So, like, all of my assistant principals are trained to be tutors for AVID, so all of them are available. Like, we do, like, a SignUpGenius thing of, like, the AVID classes being able to sign up to, like, rent an assistant principal for AVID tutorials when they need extra tutors and stuff that can go in. So it’s giving all of us kind of that understanding of what’s happening in the classrooms, just in, like, micro-doses, as opposed to the full commitment. So if you can’t make the full commitment, which, of course, I would say, if you can, absolutely do it, but find a way to get in there and do those little things that are going to kind of give you, like, volunteer to do notebook checks, like, just get into those classrooms and be that second teacher to help with some of those things that are going to give you that insider information into what’s happening in your classrooms.

Winston Benjamin 29:53

I love it. So you’ve given a bunch of tools in that last little question in terms of tutoring, ways of understanding, and that gives us a really good transition point. It’s time to ask a really major question: What’s in your toolkit?

Transition Music with Rena’s Children 30:10

Check it out. Check it out. Check it out. What’s in the toolkit? Check it out.

Winston Benjamin 30:21

What are y’all trying to take away today that you can add to your action steps that you could use to improve your school, your building, your own practice? Paul, Rena, what’s in your toolkit? What are you throwing in your toolkit?

Paul Beckermann 30:35

I’m going to drop modeling in the toolkit. I think it’s so powerful, especially in any kind of leadership position, that you are willing to do the things that those you’re leading are asked to do. There’s a certain level of credibility that comes with that. But more than credibility, it’s that connection and that understanding of what is happening at that level of the institution that you’re in. And if you’re a classroom teacher, I think the same thing goes. If you’re asking your students to do something, you should be willing to do that too. Like, when I asked my students to journal every day to start my English class, I journaled with them. When I asked them to give a demonstration speech, I gave one too to model that. I think that that connection that you get from that goes so far, so as much as you can model and connect with those that you lead.

Rena Clark 31:32

And mine kind of, you know, connects to that. But we were talking a little bit around professional learning, so providing that EdCamp-style learning. So if you don’t know that—the EdCamp style—it’s an opportunity for teachers to say what they would like to learn about. And then there’s different leaders or people that if they’re able to provide that opportunity, then they can step up and share that, but you have voice in what you want to learn. So if you haven’t heard of EdCamp style, you can check that out, or just in the sense of, I like the idea of having that choice of teacher leaders, and there should always be some professional learning days where, just like for our students, we want to model opportunities for voice and choice. We can provide that for our educators as well.

Winston Benjamin 32:18

For me, I think it’s your students. They can tell you a lot of what’s really going on in the building in terms of just like what’s a practice that’s not really good I should stay away from, if you’re an actual teacher, classroom teacher, or as an administrator, like what’s really going on in your classroom in a way where you can get an honest response. I think sometimes we forget how important and valuable the people that we have around us are as an actual skill and tool. So earlier, we found out that Scott also goes by Dr. Rojo, so I’m going to throw it out to the teachers and your students, because I’m going to ask you, Dr. Rojo, what’s in your toolkit? What are you throwing in?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 33:07

I mean, I think, for me, the biggest tool is just listening to who you lead. Like, too many administrators I see try to think that they know what’s best for people. Teachers do the same thing—they think they know what kids need and what teachers need. And to be honest, the only person who can tell you what a kid needs is the kid, and the only person who can tell you what a teacher needs is the teacher. And it’s easy for us to think that we have all the answers, but that’s not why we sit in these seats. You know, we’re not here because we know the answers. We’re here because we’re willing to listen to people tell us the answers. So I think that’s always my most important thing that I have to remind myself of sometimes, that I am not perfect. I’m as close as you can get, but I’m not quite perfect, and that I really do need to listen to other people and, like, hear what they have to say.

Paul Beckermann 33:58

Awesome. All right. Well, let’s hop into our one thing.

Transition Music 34:00

It’s time for that one thing. It’s that one thing.

Paul Beckermann 34:13

Okay, one thing time. Rena, why don’t you go first? What’s your one thing today?

Rena Clark 34:19

I love the idea that teaching is the plate, so that’s the whole thing, and we talk, yes, student learning, but really, as a teacher, you’re hired—teaching is the plate, and then everything else is, you know, on the plate, under the plate, staining the plate, whatever, holding the plate up. But I think it’s just a different way of really centering ourselves and thinking about the work. So I appreciate that.

Paul Beckermann 34:44

Winston, what do you got?

Winston Benjamin 34:46

I love the idea of putting your actions into your words, right? Because you can’t lead without some knowledge of what people are expected to do, and especially if you’re trying to do something new and innovative, you have to let your failures lead to people’s success. So I’m really picking up that part.

Paul Beckermann 35:06

Awesome. I’m hung on the collective determination idea that Scott brought up. You know, if you can have your community all pulling together, going in the same direction, that does wonders. I remember a story that a superintendent once told me. He said, “You can have the best group of dogs pulling the dog sled, but if they’re all going in different directions, the sled is not going anywhere. You’re going to tear it apart. You need that collective, you need everybody kind of working together to advance the whole.” And I think that community piece is so important.

Rena Clark 35:37

All right, Scott, you get a final thought today. What’s on your mind? What do you want to leave our listeners with?

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 35:44

Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it really kind of boils down to—all of these things, like, of what we ask you to do and how to do it—really boils down to work hard and be nice. Like, it’s really that incredibly simple. If everyone is willing to work hard in whatever they’re asked to do, whatever they’re asked to try, and you’re just nice to people as they try it and maybe succeed, maybe don’t, then that’s how you move forward. I mean, it’s four words that make a huge difference.

Rena Clark 36:21

I love that, and I want to thank you for coming on today and sharing your story and what you’re doing. And I really appreciate your unique perspective. And I’m hoping maybe some of our listeners will think about, especially our admin, “How can I create the opportunity to get in there and teach a class?” Because I think that really can make a big difference. So thank you, and we look forward to maybe hearing from you down the road, see how things are going. Thank you so much.

Dr. Scott Rodriguez-Hobbs 36:47

Thank you.

Rena Clark 36:50

Thanks for listening to Unpacking Education.

Winston Benjamin 36:53

We invite you to visit us at avidopenaccess.org where you can discover resources to support student agency and academic tenacity to create a classroom for future-ready learners.

Paul Beckermann 37:05

We’ll be back here next Wednesday for a fresh episode of Unpacking Education, and remember,

Rena Clark 37:11

Go forth and be awesome.

Winston Benjamin 37:14

Thank you for all you do.

Paul Beckermann 37:16

You make a difference.